1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:09,240 [Music] 2 00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:12,330 medical materialism and the allopathic 3 00:00:16,859 --> 00:00:14,830 paradigm comparing that to shamanic 4 00:00:18,780 --> 00:00:16,869 practices I did a two-year fellowship 5 00:00:20,130 --> 00:00:18,790 with dr. while at the University of 6 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:20,140 Arizona and integrated medicine and then 7 00:00:23,690 --> 00:00:21,849 moved into this PhD because I can't 8 00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:23,700 possibly get enough education I guess 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:27,070 and my wife is is really upon me about 10 00:00:32,250 --> 00:00:29,770 that but you can't be satisfied she said 11 00:00:35,580 --> 00:00:32,260 we're both OBGYN so we share quite a bit 12 00:00:38,310 --> 00:00:35,590 so what this study was for me if you 13 00:00:40,049 --> 00:00:38,320 look at holger call weight and what he 14 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:40,059 described as the current state now this 15 00:00:45,150 --> 00:00:42,850 was in 87 but I think it still rings 16 00:00:46,740 --> 00:00:45,160 true today is that the current state of 17 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:46,750 our medical system is bureaucratized 18 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:49,090 materialistic and a mechanical model 19 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:51,070 with an active therapist meaning the 20 00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:53,170 doctor is telling the patient what to do 21 00:00:57,060 --> 00:00:54,910 and the patient is doing it now that is 22 00:00:58,470 --> 00:00:57,070 changing a little bit in my own practice 23 00:01:01,350 --> 00:00:58,480 I have many patients telling me what to 24 00:01:02,670 --> 00:01:01,360 do and where to go but but I think 25 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:02,680 that's changing words in a shamanic 26 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:05,410 practice the shaman is more of a passive 27 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:07,750 participant and the patient is more of 28 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:09,369 the active participate healing 29 00:01:16,109 --> 00:01:12,610 themselves and at the Marshall block who 30 00:01:18,140 --> 00:01:16,119 is a physician in Arizona there was a an 31 00:01:19,950 --> 00:01:18,150 issue of the Arizona Medical Society 32 00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:19,960 newsletter that came out and it was 33 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:23,369 titled allopathic or allo pathetic and 34 00:01:28,530 --> 00:01:26,650 the gist of this newsletter was that 35 00:01:30,570 --> 00:01:28,540 spirituality and that type of healing 36 00:01:34,499 --> 00:01:30,580 has absolutely no place in medical 37 00:01:36,899 --> 00:01:34,509 practice and dr. block is basically it 38 00:01:38,310 --> 00:01:36,909 sounds like he's for spirituality but 39 00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:38,320 he's saying that the care of the patient 40 00:01:41,249 --> 00:01:39,520 community's been replaced with business 41 00:01:43,620 --> 00:01:41,259 reports in heaven and space medicine and 42 00:01:46,020 --> 00:01:43,630 evidence-based medicine cuts both ways I 43 00:01:47,550 --> 00:01:46,030 do think it has a great purpose in 44 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:47,560 showing us what works and what doesn't 45 00:01:51,270 --> 00:01:49,570 work but it also throws a lot of things 46 00:01:56,340 --> 00:01:51,280 out that do work maybe on an even an 47 00:01:58,499 --> 00:01:56,350 anecdotal level and will block also was 48 00:02:00,330 --> 00:01:58,509 the one that basically said that we're a 49 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:00,340 low pathetic and he did use the worm 50 00:02:04,429 --> 00:02:02,530 quite the word quack if you use 51 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:04,439 spirituality in your medical practice 52 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:09,310 ken wilber the basis of this comparison 53 00:02:12,810 --> 00:02:11,049 between shamanism and allopathic 54 00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:12,820 medicine is basically the pre trans 55 00:02:17,190 --> 00:02:15,160 issue the pre rational trans rational 56 00:02:19,650 --> 00:02:17,200 issues that Wilbur discusses in the pre 57 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:19,660 trans fallacy where physicians and 58 00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:21,610 scientists tend to reduce things to a 59 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:23,080 scientific level or a pre 60 00:02:27,870 --> 00:02:26,050 level and people that look at you know 61 00:02:29,790 --> 00:02:27,880 new age and maybe shamanic healing may 62 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:29,800 elevate everything to a trans rational 63 00:02:34,770 --> 00:02:32,770 state and and discredit the science so I 64 00:02:36,270 --> 00:02:34,780 think that somewhere in between and 65 00:02:39,930 --> 00:02:36,280 that's where I was going with what this 66 00:02:42,330 --> 00:02:39,940 study was and then William James he 67 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:42,340 didn't obviously say this in 2002 but it 68 00:02:48,300 --> 00:02:46,150 was a reprint medical materialism if we 69 00:02:50,340 --> 00:02:48,310 look at some of the some of our past 70 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:50,350 people you know st. Paul was an 71 00:02:55,620 --> 00:02:53,620 epileptic st. Teresa was a hysteric and 72 00:02:58,200 --> 00:02:55,630 st. Francis was a hereditary degenerate 73 00:03:00,060 --> 00:02:58,210 that's what we make all of these 74 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:00,070 experiences out to be and you're 75 00:03:05,070 --> 00:03:03,160 laughing with me I'm sure not at me but 76 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:05,080 the purpose of my study and what I did 77 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:07,450 was there's a rotation at the University 78 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:09,310 of Arizona where medical students and 79 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:10,810 residents come from around the United 80 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:12,970 States to spend a month there and learn 81 00:03:16,140 --> 00:03:14,470 about integrated medicine and 82 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:16,150 Integrative Medicine B is basically 83 00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:19,330 everything so they're they're going 84 00:03:23,370 --> 00:03:21,580 through ru Veda a little acupuncture 85 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:23,380 their energy work they're doing all 86 00:03:27,690 --> 00:03:25,450 kinds of things and so what I did was I 87 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:27,700 added a three-day thing at the end of 88 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:29,170 their rotation if they wanted to go 89 00:03:36,420 --> 00:03:31,510 where I would take I took them up to 90 00:03:38,550 --> 00:03:36,430 Sedona for three days basically paid for 91 00:03:42,660 --> 00:03:38,560 it all myself too but we won't go into 92 00:03:46,710 --> 00:03:42,670 that and for two of those days we did 93 00:03:49,770 --> 00:03:46,720 shamanic work and basically what I then 94 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:49,780 did after we we did these 48 hours where 95 00:03:53,580 --> 00:03:52,209 I didn't allow them to sleep which is 96 00:03:56,940 --> 00:03:53,590 basically the life of a resident 97 00:03:59,790 --> 00:03:56,950 physician anyways the that I used this 98 00:04:01,740 --> 00:03:59,800 in a grounded theory and basically where 99 00:04:03,930 --> 00:04:01,750 I just immersed myself in the data that 100 00:04:05,820 --> 00:04:03,940 I was collecting and from my own 101 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:05,830 experiences from where they were at and 102 00:04:09,030 --> 00:04:07,390 going through not only the allopathic 103 00:04:11,910 --> 00:04:09,040 paradigm but into this integrative 104 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:11,920 paradigm so what I looked at initially 105 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:13,600 was the stages of shamanic training and 106 00:04:17,729 --> 00:04:15,280 comparing it to the stages of allopathic 107 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:17,739 training and they're fairly similar 108 00:04:23,460 --> 00:04:19,660 Mirchi I'm going to try to pronounce 109 00:04:24,390 --> 00:04:23,470 this mere Chuck Iliad NYADA depending on 110 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:24,400 where you want to how you want to 111 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:26,830 pronounce it there's three levels that 112 00:04:30,990 --> 00:04:28,510 he came up with calling an election 113 00:04:33,510 --> 00:04:31,000 initiation and shamanic practice the 114 00:04:36,820 --> 00:04:33,520 calling for shamans can be anywhere from 115 00:04:40,900 --> 00:04:36,830 hereditary injury 116 00:04:44,290 --> 00:04:40,910 tragedy or tribal needs the the 117 00:04:46,809 --> 00:04:44,300 initiation rites basically come through 118 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:46,819 different forms as well and they can be 119 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:49,849 cultural in in one practice the 120 00:04:54,879 --> 00:04:52,250 initiation in Korea I believe they make 121 00:04:58,150 --> 00:04:54,889 shamans stand under a cold waterfall for 122 00:04:59,499 --> 00:04:58,160 11 hours and that sounds like residency 123 00:05:01,659 --> 00:04:59,509 to me I don't know if Larry would agree 124 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:01,669 to that but there is some being pummeled 125 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:04,130 in residency so there there were some 126 00:05:08,770 --> 00:05:06,410 similarities there they can also be 127 00:05:10,450 --> 00:05:08,780 initiated simply by instantaneous they 128 00:05:13,990 --> 00:05:10,460 may be struck by lightning or have a 129 00:05:15,730 --> 00:05:14,000 seizure the wounded healer archetype is 130 00:05:17,290 --> 00:05:15,740 there and dismemberment is obviously 131 00:05:18,730 --> 00:05:17,300 metaphorical if they were dismembered 132 00:05:20,649 --> 00:05:18,740 they probably wouldn't be doing much but 133 00:05:25,059 --> 00:05:20,659 the metaphorical dismemberment where 134 00:05:26,529 --> 00:05:25,069 they might go on a shamanic voyage into 135 00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:26,539 the wilderness for 3-4 days without food 136 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:28,190 and then come back and they'll they'll 137 00:05:31,540 --> 00:05:29,630 go through this dismemberment where 138 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:31,550 they're ripped apart metaphorically and 139 00:05:34,629 --> 00:05:33,110 then put back together and then the 140 00:05:38,469 --> 00:05:34,639 shamanic practice where they go out into 141 00:05:40,689 --> 00:05:38,479 the community there's a story of a 142 00:05:42,580 --> 00:05:40,699 tribal and an Asian tribe I can't 143 00:05:43,990 --> 00:05:42,590 remember the name where after they go 144 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:44,000 through the initiative rites and they 145 00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:45,710 practice for a couple of years they have 146 00:05:50,499 --> 00:05:47,990 to sit in front of four elder shamans 147 00:05:51,909 --> 00:05:50,509 and actually heal patients and the 148 00:05:54,219 --> 00:05:51,919 elders then tell them whether or not 149 00:05:57,939 --> 00:05:54,229 they can join the club and that sounds 150 00:05:58,990 --> 00:05:57,949 like my boards so and then once you get 151 00:06:00,310 --> 00:05:59,000 the piece of paper that says you're in 152 00:06:02,260 --> 00:06:00,320 the club you don't know what to do with 153 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:02,270 it after that but but yeah it's it's 154 00:06:06,070 --> 00:06:04,490 this it's this process of initiation and 155 00:06:08,649 --> 00:06:06,080 and working through things the 156 00:06:12,850 --> 00:06:08,659 allopathic training is similar we have a 157 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:12,860 calling they can be called basically 158 00:06:16,540 --> 00:06:14,930 through your heritage or my my wife and 159 00:06:18,370 --> 00:06:16,550 I are both physicians my two oldest kids 160 00:06:20,529 --> 00:06:18,380 are 16 and 18 they want to be doctors 161 00:06:23,529 --> 00:06:20,539 despite seeing how miserable we are at 162 00:06:25,540 --> 00:06:23,539 times so I think that obviously that 163 00:06:28,330 --> 00:06:25,550 plays a huge factor but there's also the 164 00:06:29,980 --> 00:06:28,340 ideals of income job stability things of 165 00:06:32,409 --> 00:06:29,990 that nature the education and training 166 00:06:34,209 --> 00:06:32,419 is very similar like I talked about 167 00:06:37,629 --> 00:06:34,219 their stages of training medical school 168 00:06:39,850 --> 00:06:37,639 residency practice and then we also 169 00:06:41,230 --> 00:06:39,860 learned through you know physicians I 170 00:06:42,730 --> 00:06:41,240 think we take it for granted and maybe 171 00:06:44,620 --> 00:06:42,740 we don't realize it but we have a lot of 172 00:06:46,689 --> 00:06:44,630 ceremony and ritual and medicine and I 173 00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:46,699 have a paper that's coming out and I'm 174 00:06:52,670 --> 00:06:48,840 going to plug myself if there 175 00:06:54,770 --> 00:06:52,680 and explore in September that's on the 176 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:54,780 rituals of basically it's the surgical 177 00:07:00,890 --> 00:06:57,690 suite as a sacred ritual and if you look 178 00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:00,900 at surgery what other place in healing 179 00:07:06,830 --> 00:07:03,660 do we have a patient laying on a table 180 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:06,840 in a christ-like position unconscious in 181 00:07:11,660 --> 00:07:09,510 a basically close to death and then 182 00:07:13,220 --> 00:07:11,670 brought back to life at the hand I mean 183 00:07:15,140 --> 00:07:13,230 it's quite an amazing ceremony and I 184 00:07:17,180 --> 00:07:15,150 think we take it for granted 185 00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:17,190 and so there there are a lot of 186 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:18,630 similarities with the ceremonies and 187 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:20,450 ritual but I think we've lost it all and 188 00:07:25,940 --> 00:07:24,210 because we're you know we're into you 189 00:07:27,620 --> 00:07:25,950 know being here at 2 o'clock and I've 190 00:07:29,930 --> 00:07:27,630 got five surgeries today and things of 191 00:07:31,670 --> 00:07:29,940 that nature and then the initiation as 192 00:07:33,470 --> 00:07:31,680 I've spoken about is very hierarchical 193 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:33,480 in medicine and I think that in shamanic 194 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:35,610 training it's very similar so this is a 195 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:37,650 pilot study and Julie by shal reminded 196 00:07:42,050 --> 00:07:39,420 me to say things are a pilot no I'm just 197 00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:42,060 kidding because it was a very small 198 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:43,710 study and it can definitely be carried 199 00:07:48,770 --> 00:07:46,650 out farther but I had 32 students and we 200 00:07:51,830 --> 00:07:48,780 spent 48 hours in Sedona which is so 201 00:07:53,810 --> 00:07:51,840 horrible to be in Sedona but but 202 00:07:55,970 --> 00:07:53,820 basically we were outside and so for I 203 00:07:58,700 --> 00:07:55,980 think they we weren't staying at a great 204 00:08:00,380 --> 00:07:58,710 hotel and we we hiked up to some 205 00:08:02,750 --> 00:08:00,390 abandoned hopi ruins where they would 206 00:08:04,670 --> 00:08:02,760 you can see the fire varnish still on 207 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:04,680 the rocks there's a lot of hieroglyphics 208 00:08:09,950 --> 00:08:07,140 still there so it's a pretty neat place 209 00:08:11,420 --> 00:08:09,960 with a lot of energy and we did drumming 210 00:08:13,930 --> 00:08:11,430 for four to six hours where we would 211 00:08:16,700 --> 00:08:13,940 just literally drum bang on rocks 212 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:16,710 basically got cave Manesh if you will 213 00:08:22,130 --> 00:08:19,740 and and then with James Andretti who's 214 00:08:23,690 --> 00:08:22,140 an author he spent about 10 to 15 years 215 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:23,700 living with the Huichol and he's gone 216 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:25,230 through their initiation rites we did 217 00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:26,010 some healings 218 00:08:32,540 --> 00:08:29,430 of each other while we were drumming for 219 00:08:34,070 --> 00:08:32,550 another couple of hours we didn't do 220 00:08:39,829 --> 00:08:34,080 much in the way of talking we slept 221 00:08:41,959 --> 00:08:39,839 outside the next day we we I we went 222 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:41,969 through a fire ceremony this is the 223 00:08:47,630 --> 00:08:45,030 picture of us drumming on the rocks and 224 00:08:49,850 --> 00:08:47,640 the next day the next evening when 225 00:08:51,380 --> 00:08:49,860 everybody was basically spent physically 226 00:08:53,540 --> 00:08:51,390 and emotionally we went through a fire 227 00:08:55,079 --> 00:08:53,550 ceremony which we all sit around a fire 228 00:08:56,980 --> 00:08:55,089 and 229 00:08:59,050 --> 00:08:56,990 everybody that's around the fire is 230 00:09:00,939 --> 00:08:59,060 actually a part of the fire so anything 231 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:00,949 that said stays with the fire and goes 232 00:09:05,079 --> 00:09:03,889 up and people were going through their 233 00:09:06,670 --> 00:09:05,089 lives and we were going through all 234 00:09:09,490 --> 00:09:06,680 kinds of things and then after that 235 00:09:11,860 --> 00:09:09,500 interview after that I interviewed all 236 00:09:14,889 --> 00:09:11,870 the students now used grounded theory 237 00:09:17,860 --> 00:09:14,899 because basically the theory is grounded 238 00:09:20,199 --> 00:09:17,870 in your data and for me obviously 239 00:09:21,430 --> 00:09:20,209 there's a bias because I'm I was one of 240 00:09:23,889 --> 00:09:21,440 them I've been through what they've been 241 00:09:25,689 --> 00:09:23,899 through but I think that that bias which 242 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:25,699 in grounded theory you have a bias 243 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:28,370 because it's grounded in your data but 244 00:09:33,999 --> 00:09:30,410 it's both subjective and objective and I 245 00:09:35,620 --> 00:09:34,009 was basically able to come up with some 246 00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:35,630 theories based on what I was hearing 247 00:09:41,019 --> 00:09:38,240 from these students so what I got from 248 00:09:43,629 --> 00:09:41,029 the students was 16 of them had one or 249 00:09:45,490 --> 00:09:43,639 both parents that were physicians 16 250 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:45,500 just claimed that the vocation itself 251 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:47,060 they just wanted to be a doctor for 252 00:09:51,129 --> 00:09:49,730 whatever reason none of them actually 253 00:09:54,129 --> 00:09:51,139 stated that they felt like their 254 00:09:56,590 --> 00:09:54,139 personal wounds were part of why they 255 00:09:59,290 --> 00:09:56,600 became a physician and I think for 256 00:10:02,430 --> 00:09:59,300 myself a future study would be I think 257 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:02,440 that I think that personal wounds do 258 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:04,910 have a significant influence on why we 259 00:10:09,670 --> 00:10:07,550 do what we do and I think that it helps 260 00:10:12,069 --> 00:10:09,680 us choose why we go into what we go into 261 00:10:14,319 --> 00:10:12,079 as doctors and I'll tell you about why I 262 00:10:17,139 --> 00:10:14,329 went into OB that I discovered amongst 263 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:17,149 this trip 50% stated that they were 264 00:10:22,150 --> 00:10:19,010 skeptical of shamanism when they started 265 00:10:23,379 --> 00:10:22,160 but at the conclusion most of them had 266 00:10:26,050 --> 00:10:23,389 an inked they said that an increased 267 00:10:28,210 --> 00:10:26,060 sense of self-awareness and they felt 268 00:10:29,980 --> 00:10:28,220 that the hearing healing ritual that we 269 00:10:32,290 --> 00:10:29,990 did that banging on the rocks being 270 00:10:33,819 --> 00:10:32,300 together made them feel like a group 271 00:10:35,230 --> 00:10:33,829 that they hadn't felt the whole month 272 00:10:37,449 --> 00:10:35,240 that they were doing this rotation 273 00:10:38,980 --> 00:10:37,459 together they also felt like their 274 00:10:40,750 --> 00:10:38,990 hearing and their sense of touch was 275 00:10:42,309 --> 00:10:40,760 heightened they it wasn't measurable but 276 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:42,319 it was just something that they reported 277 00:10:46,809 --> 00:10:44,689 and that they felt like the that they 278 00:10:49,210 --> 00:10:46,819 definitely had a better sense of what 279 00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:49,220 shamanism or indigenous healing 280 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:51,680 practices were and they felt that this 281 00:10:57,370 --> 00:10:53,569 helped them connect to their own healing 282 00:11:01,300 --> 00:10:57,380 practice indigenous shamans what I found 283 00:11:02,439 --> 00:11:01,310 in looking at my data was that what we 284 00:11:05,170 --> 00:11:02,449 saw some of the similarities between 285 00:11:06,639 --> 00:11:05,180 doctors and shamanic training but what 286 00:11:08,319 --> 00:11:06,649 was one of the main differences well one 287 00:11:10,329 --> 00:11:08,329 of the main differences that I saw was 288 00:11:12,189 --> 00:11:10,339 that shamans heal in the communities 289 00:11:13,689 --> 00:11:12,199 where they live they they grow up there 290 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:13,699 they stay there they train there they 291 00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:15,290 know everybody they may live on the 292 00:11:21,790 --> 00:11:18,110 outskirts of town but they live there 293 00:11:23,290 --> 00:11:21,800 doctors what do we do we go somewhere we 294 00:11:25,689 --> 00:11:23,300 might move three or four times before we 295 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:25,699 even go to medical school but we we go 296 00:11:29,199 --> 00:11:27,110 to medical school four years later we go 297 00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:29,209 to residency four years later we go and 298 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:31,040 live somewhere else we may live 20 30 299 00:11:35,410 --> 00:11:33,410 miles from where we practice and so we 300 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:35,420 really don't live in the community where 301 00:11:39,490 --> 00:11:37,490 we practice and and some of us may even 302 00:11:41,980 --> 00:11:39,500 change practices four or five times in 303 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:41,990 locations so that's a huge thing that I 304 00:11:46,449 --> 00:11:44,689 think that what I recommend that doctors 305 00:11:47,860 --> 00:11:46,459 just live in the hometown where they 306 00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:47,870 grew up I don't know if that would work 307 00:11:51,850 --> 00:11:49,790 but I think that's definitely one thing 308 00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:51,860 that we could look at with our healing 309 00:11:57,629 --> 00:11:53,720 practices is maybe why we're 310 00:12:00,160 --> 00:11:57,639 disconnected as physicians and then 311 00:12:03,790 --> 00:12:00,170 basically the conclusions other 312 00:12:05,230 --> 00:12:03,800 conclusions Poland and Casa Vic's say 313 00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:05,240 medical schools have an important role 314 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:06,649 in reducing the isolation of their 315 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:09,110 students from alternative health beliefs 316 00:12:13,870 --> 00:12:10,850 like shamanism that are part of our 317 00:12:15,610 --> 00:12:13,880 community we need to try to somehow 318 00:12:18,009 --> 00:12:15,620 bring the scale I think dr. Weil has 319 00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:18,019 tried to do this to a certain extent but 320 00:12:21,579 --> 00:12:20,000 you know there's there's other ways of 321 00:12:23,769 --> 00:12:21,589 doing this Rachael remin has brought in 322 00:12:24,970 --> 00:12:23,779 compassion into medical schools but we 323 00:12:26,259 --> 00:12:24,980 don't really get a lot of this when 324 00:12:29,350 --> 00:12:26,269 we're training we definitely don't get 325 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:29,360 this in residency residency you are 326 00:12:34,059 --> 00:12:31,490 dismembered almost literally at times 327 00:12:36,069 --> 00:12:34,069 and so I think that's part of why we 328 00:12:38,139 --> 00:12:36,079 have this disconnect but I think what I 329 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:38,149 was looking at with this the the bonfire 330 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:40,730 of the paradigms was that we are always 331 00:12:43,389 --> 00:12:42,230 looking forward at technology in 332 00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:43,399 medicine and maybe we should look 333 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:45,649 backwards maybe where we came from and 334 00:12:50,799 --> 00:12:49,250 why we came from there the continuing 335 00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:50,809 continuation of spirituality and 336 00:12:55,059 --> 00:12:52,910 medicine I believe is a critical conduit 337 00:12:57,939 --> 00:12:55,069 to the healing of the physician and I 338 00:13:00,189 --> 00:12:57,949 think that we I think if you don't come 339 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:00,199 into medicine wounded you probably leave 340 00:13:05,889 --> 00:13:01,790 wounded when you when you come out of 341 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:05,899 residency young said that we could say 342 00:13:08,980 --> 00:13:07,370 without too much exaggeration that a 343 00:13:10,780 --> 00:13:08,990 good half of every treatment that probes 344 00:13:13,150 --> 00:13:10,790 at all deeply consists in the doctors 345 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:13,160 examining himself for only what he can 346 00:13:18,249 --> 00:13:16,010 put himself put right in himself can he 347 00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:18,259 hope to put right in the patient it is 348 00:13:22,119 --> 00:13:20,959 it is no loss either if he feels that 349 00:13:24,009 --> 00:13:22,129 the patient is hitting him or even 350 00:13:25,210 --> 00:13:24,019 scoffing him it is his own hurt that 351 00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:25,220 gives the measure of his power to heal 352 00:13:28,719 --> 00:13:26,720 the more wounded you are the more 353 00:13:30,729 --> 00:13:28,729 powerful you might heal and robert rehme 354 00:13:32,799 --> 00:13:30,739 nishan at Pacifica I wrote a book called 355 00:13:34,569 --> 00:13:32,809 the wounded researcher and he talks 356 00:13:36,609 --> 00:13:34,579 about this as well that students can 357 00:13:38,259 --> 00:13:36,619 sometimes put out some really good 358 00:13:41,469 --> 00:13:38,269 research based on their own personal 359 00:13:44,079 --> 00:13:41,479 wounds sorry about that looking at this 360 00:13:46,509 --> 00:13:44,089 aspect of it at the end of this I I was 361 00:13:48,909 --> 00:13:46,519 doing a genogram which is where I was 362 00:13:51,909 --> 00:13:48,919 looking at my family tree and for three 363 00:13:56,349 --> 00:13:51,919 generations back and I in that genogram 364 00:13:58,079 --> 00:13:56,359 I was looking at the there was conflict 365 00:14:01,210 --> 00:13:58,089 lines I drew conflict lines between 366 00:14:04,359 --> 00:14:01,220 almost every maternal bond in my family 367 00:14:06,489 --> 00:14:04,369 and when I saw that I was like gosh you 368 00:14:08,379 --> 00:14:06,499 know why did I go into ob/gyn people 369 00:14:10,179 --> 00:14:08,389 always ask me you know why did you go 370 00:14:11,739 --> 00:14:10,189 into ob/gyn and I always say because I 371 00:14:17,019 --> 00:14:11,749 didn't like any of the other rotations 372 00:14:18,579 --> 00:14:17,029 but but you know sometimes you look at 373 00:14:20,739 --> 00:14:18,589 this and on a deeper level you really 374 00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:20,749 sometimes you can't answer it and so as 375 00:14:24,579 --> 00:14:22,910 I looked at this genogram and I saw all 376 00:14:27,099 --> 00:14:24,589 these connections between mothers and 377 00:14:29,619 --> 00:14:27,109 children that were just just conflict 378 00:14:31,989 --> 00:14:29,629 clown for conflict grandmothers and 379 00:14:33,489 --> 00:14:31,999 their kids and I said well there was one 380 00:14:35,470 --> 00:14:33,499 thing that I came up there was a little 381 00:14:36,939 --> 00:14:35,480 just could be potentially disturbing and 382 00:14:40,599 --> 00:14:36,949 another that made a lot of sense and the 383 00:14:44,559 --> 00:14:40,609 disturbing one is that in medicine in 384 00:14:47,109 --> 00:14:44,569 GYN I do hysterectomies and um you know 385 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:47,119 I'm actually cutting out the maternal 386 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:49,850 organ and the the birthing organ the 387 00:14:53,499 --> 00:14:51,410 organ that you know my mom and I did not 388 00:14:55,059 --> 00:14:53,509 have a good relationship and so that 389 00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:55,069 kind of disturbed me I'm saying well 390 00:14:58,569 --> 00:14:56,720 hopefully that's not the reason that I 391 00:15:01,199 --> 00:14:58,579 went into this but on a subconscious 392 00:15:03,460 --> 00:15:01,209 level you could see where that might be 393 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:03,470 something to look at you know something 394 00:15:09,039 --> 00:15:06,409 to examine and the other thing that I 395 00:15:11,439 --> 00:15:09,049 saw though was that obviously if there's 396 00:15:12,759 --> 00:15:11,449 this maternal child conflict in my 397 00:15:15,340 --> 00:15:12,769 family at least for the last three 398 00:15:17,079 --> 00:15:15,350 generations me going into OB is probably 399 00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:17,089 a way for me to heal those ancestral 400 00:15:21,969 --> 00:15:19,519 wounds in my family I'm trying to figure 401 00:15:24,699 --> 00:15:21,979 out this whole I'm surrounded by women 402 00:15:27,729 --> 00:15:24,709 and I'm surrounded by women and children 403 00:15:29,529 --> 00:15:27,739 all the time and by immersing myself in 404 00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:29,539 that I think on a subconscious level I 405 00:15:35,770 --> 00:15:32,030 was trying to heal my wounded he 406 00:15:38,530 --> 00:15:35,780 and so I think that shamanic practice 407 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:38,540 and the the wounded healer archetype can 408 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:40,610 really give us some insight if not into 409 00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:43,130 anything else to maybe why we do the 410 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:47,120 things that we do as doctors and so you 411 00:15:50,410 --> 00:15:48,890 know like I said it's a small study I 412 00:15:52,270 --> 00:15:50,420 would like to do something in the future 413 00:15:54,990 --> 00:15:52,280 looking at that wounded archetype and 414 00:15:58,750 --> 00:15:55,000 and and talking to physicians about that 415 00:16:01,450 --> 00:15:58,760 and and their stories out there my PhD 416 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:01,460 is is on the life of Larry Dossey I'm 417 00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:04,370 doing interviews with Larry and I'll 418 00:16:08,170 --> 00:16:06,260 tell you just spending time with 419 00:16:12,460 --> 00:16:08,180 somebody like him has helped me 420 00:16:14,380 --> 00:16:12,470 immensely understand my medicine and and 421 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:14,390 what I do and I think in all of our 422 00:16:18,550 --> 00:16:16,910 professions if we look to the people in 423 00:16:21,250 --> 00:16:18,560 our past that have come up the ranks 424 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:21,260 before us that are the luminaries it can 425 00:16:24,130 --> 00:16:22,730 help us understand ourselves a little 426 00:16:31,780 --> 00:16:24,140 bit better and hopefully help us heal 427 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:31,790 better thank you thank you questions 428 00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,160 mmm ritual reef we could go I had a 429 00:16:49,150 --> 00:16:47,360 female patient that was in labor 430 00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:49,160 prior to labor she was going to have the 431 00:16:55,330 --> 00:16:51,190 pubis symphysis bone separates so we 432 00:16:58,540 --> 00:16:55,340 convinced her to get a c-section and 433 00:17:00,520 --> 00:16:58,550 with the biome research coming out we 434 00:17:05,050 --> 00:17:00,530 actually convinced the OB in the 435 00:17:06,970 --> 00:17:05,060 hospital to allow us to swab birth canal 436 00:17:09,250 --> 00:17:06,980 fluids all over the baby an hour after 437 00:17:12,340 --> 00:17:09,260 it was born I just would like to comment 438 00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:12,350 on that approach I have the fact that 439 00:17:16,510 --> 00:17:14,030 you're able to convince an OB to do 440 00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:16,520 anything outside of the norm is amazing 441 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:20,390 to me and I you know I consider myself 442 00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:22,010 pretty open-minded the fact that they 443 00:17:25,630 --> 00:17:23,360 were going to consider separating her 444 00:17:27,790 --> 00:17:25,640 pubis symphysis is fascinating to me I 445 00:17:30,670 --> 00:17:27,800 wouldn't ever even consider that in a 446 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:30,680 million years but I guess your question 447 00:17:37,660 --> 00:17:33,530 about the after point of doing the 448 00:17:39,910 --> 00:17:37,670 fluids and things like that you know 449 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:39,920 I've worked with a lot of nurse nurses 450 00:17:44,110 --> 00:17:42,290 tend to be very they're way better than 451 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:44,120 doctors at being open towards different 452 00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:46,490 healing modalities I will greatly admit 453 00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:49,880 that we have nurses that do a lot of 454 00:17:56,050 --> 00:17:53,720 aromatherapy in the rooms and they'll do 455 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:56,060 things like they'll put peppermint or 456 00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:57,410 something up by the shoulders and then 457 00:18:01,060 --> 00:17:58,880 they'll put it down on the perineum and 458 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:01,070 it'd be so the baby's familiar with the 459 00:18:04,810 --> 00:18:03,290 smells and things are nice one of my 460 00:18:06,550 --> 00:18:04,820 partner said well they're coming out by 461 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:06,560 the bottom why don't you put some of 462 00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:08,510 that up there too and so that's how 463 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:11,990 that's the mentality but but I agree 464 00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:13,280 with you I think that you know if you 465 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:15,440 look at things like placenta I had a 466 00:18:21,850 --> 00:18:18,170 family that was Navajo and and they put 467 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:21,860 the blood on their faces after the baby 468 00:18:26,110 --> 00:18:23,330 was born and they put some on the baby 469 00:18:27,970 --> 00:18:26,120 and I think you know I don't know enough 470 00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:27,980 about the biome theory to be perfectly 471 00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:29,630 honest to make a comment about that but 472 00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:31,520 I do think that it helps with bonding I 473 00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:33,260 think that it can anything like that can 474 00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:35,120 help with bonding well there was a first 475 00:18:38,740 --> 00:18:36,830 for Northern Michigan if not mesh I 476 00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:38,750 can't imagine it was a first probably in 477 00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,380 the United States 478 00:18:45,139 --> 00:18:42,720 in an Obie Award maybe in a birthing 479 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:45,149 center but an Obie Award for sure that's 480 00:18:53,659 --> 00:18:45,630 great 481 00:18:55,340 --> 00:18:53,669 thank you hello Emory Mort it's my name 482 00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:55,350 thank you I really enjoyed your 483 00:18:58,610 --> 00:18:57,360 presentation and thank you I think your 484 00:19:00,409 --> 00:18:58,620 works really courageous 485 00:19:02,210 --> 00:19:00,419 I just want to thank you and those who 486 00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:02,220 have helped you well I do have to look 487 00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:04,529 behind my back a lot so when I'm at the 488 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:07,769 when I'm at the hospital so I'm actually 489 00:19:13,759 --> 00:19:11,250 gonna ask a fairly broad question I've 490 00:19:18,919 --> 00:19:13,769 been interested in healing through lucid 491 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:18,929 dreams also healing through use of 492 00:19:24,169 --> 00:19:20,690 psychoactive substances let's say 493 00:19:26,149 --> 00:19:24,179 mushrooms and I was interested in the 494 00:19:29,779 --> 00:19:26,159 observation of the students who went on 495 00:19:32,570 --> 00:19:29,789 the Vision Quest with you who noticed an 496 00:19:35,299 --> 00:19:32,580 increase in their ability to in sensory 497 00:19:37,999 --> 00:19:35,309 feeling and also audio auditory ability 498 00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:38,009 this is actually something that's lucid 499 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:39,750 dreamers and things often experience a 500 00:19:46,909 --> 00:19:42,570 very similar thing also this is a noted 501 00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:46,919 and documented product of mushroom 502 00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,340 intake have you noted this this kind of 503 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:52,799 correlation and would you say that the 504 00:19:57,619 --> 00:19:54,690 shamanic journeying that you're able to 505 00:20:02,299 --> 00:19:57,629 do that you've noticed is akin to these 506 00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:02,309 other practices or I haven't taken 507 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:05,460 mushrooms well yeah but I'd try them if 508 00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:06,570 I had somebody that knew what they were 509 00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:09,480 doing but no I I hear what you're saying 510 00:20:14,509 --> 00:20:13,230 I think that what happened I think when 511 00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:14,519 we were doing the drumming and I think 512 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:15,990 you know if you look at Charlie Tarts 513 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:18,330 work on altered states of consciousness 514 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:20,970 that puts you into an altered states of 515 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:22,529 state of consciousness I don't know that 516 00:20:29,749 --> 00:20:26,490 enough about the the way the brain waves 517 00:20:33,019 --> 00:20:29,759 to tell you which ones are being but I 518 00:20:35,869 --> 00:20:33,029 know after six hours you are not in your 519 00:20:39,860 --> 00:20:35,879 normal state of mind hungry and tired 520 00:20:41,539 --> 00:20:39,870 and then this rhythmic beating I I spent 521 00:20:43,879 --> 00:20:41,549 some time in Brazil in November and 522 00:20:46,669 --> 00:20:43,889 worked with the mediums there and John 523 00:20:48,110 --> 00:20:46,679 of God I spent some time there and one 524 00:20:49,549 --> 00:20:48,120 of the things that the mediums do when 525 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:49,559 they start their work there is they do 526 00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:51,690 what's called a palma TRAI which is 527 00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:52,480 where they snap 528 00:20:58,500 --> 00:20:55,270 fingers to get into an altered state and 529 00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:58,510 I think that that altered state you know 530 00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:00,000 obviously if you're under the 531 00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:02,320 psychedelic you you're gonna be there 532 00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,720 for hours versus maybe if you're doing 533 00:21:10,350 --> 00:21:06,640 it with drumming and whatnot but I have 534 00:21:13,950 --> 00:21:10,360 a theory really quick you know Rick 535 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:13,960 Strassman zhh work with LSD and you know 536 00:21:18,919 --> 00:21:16,450 the DMT yes with DMT that's why man 537 00:21:20,970 --> 00:21:18,929 thank you for correcting me and the 538 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:20,980 interesting thing is you know shamans 539 00:21:24,780 --> 00:21:22,330 will talk about traveling the axis 540 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:24,790 Monday to the spirit world when they do 541 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:28,750 like ayahuasca or high bogar and when 542 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:30,070 you when you're watching a woman in 543 00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,450 labor who's about seven or eight 544 00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:33,520 centimeters and she's unmedicated the 545 00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:35,230 pain kind of goes away for a little 546 00:21:39,419 --> 00:21:38,110 while and they I've seen their eyes roll 547 00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:39,429 up and they go somewhere I don't know 548 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:41,740 where they go but they go somewhere and 549 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:46,210 I wonder that there's some literature 550 00:21:51,180 --> 00:21:49,090 that shows that the DMT is released you 551 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:51,190 know at times when there is intense pain 552 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:54,250 or at birth things of that nature and my 553 00:21:58,020 --> 00:21:55,990 I'm curious and I don't think I could 554 00:22:01,560 --> 00:21:58,030 ever get an IRB to approve this but to 555 00:22:04,049 --> 00:22:01,570 draw levels of to look at that is is the 556 00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:04,059 mother traveling the axis Monday at that 557 00:22:08,909 --> 00:22:05,919 point in time to connect with her birth 558 00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:08,919 babies spirit and bring this kid into 559 00:22:11,970 --> 00:22:10,600 the world and it sounds kind of out 560 00:22:15,419 --> 00:22:11,980 there but where else could I say it but 561 00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:15,429 here right so but but I think there's 562 00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:17,020 something to that and I think that that 563 00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:18,640 altered state that you're talking about 564 00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:23,200 I don't know as being a physician if 565 00:22:27,659 --> 00:22:24,910 that would help me as a healer in the 566 00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:27,669 sense that I might lose my license 567 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:30,400 but but I do think that if we can get 568 00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:32,650 there through other means and I've been 569 00:22:37,409 --> 00:22:34,240 invited to ayahuasca ceremonies in 570 00:22:39,299 --> 00:22:37,419 Tucson secretively and haven't been able 571 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:39,309 to go but I do think it would be 572 00:22:43,260 --> 00:22:41,410 interesting to but I'm afraid of that 573 00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:43,270 you know Dan Pinchbeck wrote a book 574 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:45,280 called breaking open the head and that's 575 00:22:51,180 --> 00:22:48,250 why I titled my talk that because I'm 576 00:22:54,299 --> 00:22:51,190 you know when you do a substance like 577 00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:54,309 that are you gonna go to heaven or hell 578 00:22:56,970 --> 00:22:55,600 I think what the hell does Huxley wrote 579 00:22:58,890 --> 00:22:56,980 that book you know where are you gonna 580 00:23:00,780 --> 00:22:58,900 go and so you got to have a guidance and 581 00:23:02,460 --> 00:23:00,790 I you know doctor we don't have that 582 00:23:03,379 --> 00:23:02,470 because we don't go that way usually but 583 00:23:07,789 --> 00:23:03,389 thanks for 584 00:23:11,419 --> 00:23:07,799 sorry for my long-winded answer I'm Paul 585 00:23:15,139 --> 00:23:11,429 Hansen and I just wanted to affirm the 586 00:23:16,759 --> 00:23:15,149 notion of knowing your own wounds 50 587 00:23:18,889 --> 00:23:16,769 some years ago I was doing an internship 588 00:23:20,329 --> 00:23:18,899 at the Topeka State Hospital and 589 00:23:22,849 --> 00:23:20,339 Menninger Foundation in Topeka Kansas 590 00:23:24,919 --> 00:23:22,859 and when the new crop of residents would 591 00:23:26,989 --> 00:23:24,929 come in the joke for the first week or 592 00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:26,999 so was well what what's your wound that 593 00:23:31,069 --> 00:23:28,559 brings you here what's your problem that 594 00:23:33,499 --> 00:23:31,079 brings you here and over many many years 595 00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:33,509 of doing psychotherapy being aware of my 596 00:23:38,779 --> 00:23:35,940 own woundedness and the nature of those 597 00:23:41,329 --> 00:23:38,789 and that awareness kept growing enabled 598 00:23:43,009 --> 00:23:41,339 me not only to keep on healing but to be 599 00:23:45,529 --> 00:23:43,019 a more powerful healer as you said for 600 00:23:48,889 --> 00:23:45,539 your patients thank you I wish we could 601 00:23:51,499 --> 00:23:48,899 I wish we could be a 30 year old doctor 602 00:23:53,539 --> 00:23:51,509 with a 60 year old experience level you 603 00:23:55,759 --> 00:23:53,549 know just like I said I wish I could 604 00:23:58,129 --> 00:23:55,769 have been a 40 year old father with a 20 605 00:24:00,529 --> 00:23:58,139 year old body but that doesn't work very 606 00:24:00,710 --> 00:24:00,539 well either all right thank you very 607 00:24:02,010 --> 00:24:00,720 much 608 00:24:04,010 --> 00:24:02,020 [Music]